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Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
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Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape

By Serpentine

Thursday, 05 July 2007

This essay was inspired by silver ink pot (so here's your desired essay on Snape Castle after all! ), The Black Adder (thanks for bearing with my rants about this topic after HBP ), Jane Austen (see below) and loads of sources both offline and online, feeding this nerd's obsession with a possible link between Snape and Richard III. My heartfelt thanks to you all!


1. Snape Castle

There are at least two places named Snape in England (the other being in Suffolk near Ipswich). But by the northern Snape also stands a castle, a historically interesting one to boot. Snape Castle in North Yorkshire - once inhabited by Richard III's mother and wife -, near the village of Snape, is fairly close to Hadrian's Wall, repaired by Roman Emperor Lucius Septimius Severus, who died in the City of York.

The Snape Local History Group presents Snape as follows (content copied by Wikipedia as well):

http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/slhg/
Quote from: Communigate: Snape Local History Group

The village of Snape in North Yorkshire stands three miles south of BEDALE and three miles west of the A1. With a population of about 350, the village has numerous historical associations including: the site of a Roman Villa; the connection at Snape Castle of the mother and the wife of Richard III; the residency of Catherine Parr before her marriage to Henry VIII; involvement in the Pilgrimage of Grace in 1536. Prior to the mid 19th century Snape was a centre for the woolcombing trade. The Thorp Perrow estate lies just to the north of the village and boasts a fine arboretum.

Snape Castle does look fascinating. According to the Castle History section of the SLHG, the ground is rather boggy though (Snape does mean "boggy pasture" ), and so the foundations were built on on oak piles sunk in the ground in triple rows. Interesting detail: you can actually book accommodation in the Undercroft of Snape Castle (up to 4 people), and the view described below sounds beautiful:

http://www.historic-uk.com/stayuk/North-...Castle.htm
Quote from: The Undercroft, Snape Castle, near Bedale, North Yorkshire

Snape Castle is a fascinating historic building which during its existence has had many famous occupants, many being kinsmen to several English Kings and prominent families. There was a manor on the site of the present castle, built in 1250 by Lord Ranulph Fitzranulf, which passed into the ownership of the Neville family. They subsequently replaced it by building the castle between 1420 ¬ 1450 and it remained in their family until 1798. In 1483 Lady Cecily, being a Neville, and then later the widowed Duchess of York and mother of Richard III, came to live in the castle to be later joined by Richard’s wife, Queen Anne. Lady Cecily was the grandmother of the ‘Princes in the Tower’.

Catherine Parr, widow of Sir John Neville, lived here for 10 years before becoming Henry VIII's sixth wife in 1543.

The first floor chapel at the Castle was built in the 15th Century. The ceiling was painted by Antonio Verrio but, sadly, little can be seen of it now.

The Grade I Listed castle enjoys a prominent south facing position on the edge of the village of Snape, some two miles west of the popular and well serviced town of Bedale, a gateway town to both the Yorkshire Dales and the North York Moors. (...)

The SLHG homepage also contains a Multimap link to find out where Snape is. As it turns out, it's less than 14 miles / 22 km from Middleham, Richard III's preferred residence (if you follow the given route by car; the distance as the crow flies is even less, from the way it looks on the map it can't be more than 12 miles). Also, this Snape in North Yorkshire is also fairly close to to Hadrian's Wall repaired by Lucius Septimius Severus (99 miles / 160 km).

Due to the close proximity it isn't surprising that the places Snape and Middleham have common history. This lengthy account of the village life in the area focuses mainly on Crakehall, but deals with Middleham and Snape Castle as well (and, as a side note, gives interesting insights into the effect both lords Richard Neville Earl of Warwick, "the Kingmaker", and Richard Duke of Gloucester, the later Richard III, had on the region).
http://www.glenlodge.me.uk/crakehall/con...llife.html


2. Richard III

Urgent recommendation: If you should ever come across a good biography of Richard III, it's really worth a read - the real historical person is WAY more interesting than Shakespeare's archetypal villain. I read one after a well-written history novel caught my interest (and have gotten myself a second biography by Kendall in the meantime, along with two other quality history novels by Tey and Penman ), and he really seems to have been a most intriguing personality. Not at all the clear-cut evil and ugly villain as which Shakespeare portrays him, but rather the contrary: very much a complex human being, whose good deeds and intentions seem to have escaped the attention of history for much too long. (But well, Shakespeare wrote for a Tudor queen, granddaughter of Henry VII who took the throne from Richard, so... ) Over at the Other Place, Lady DeMimsy had him featured in one of her fanfics: in a story "Remedial History" told by Nearly Headless Nick who, with his beheadal in 1492 (seven years after Bosworth), would seem to have been Richard III's contemporary.

Richard Plantagenet (1452-1485), Duke of Gloucester and later King Richard III (1483-1485), is mostly portrayed as the hallmark of a villain, usurper and murderer of his nephews and of pretty much everyone else around him who got in his way (for which there is no shred of evidence, only rumours spread, and several contenders for the crown and/or supporters of other contenders would have had much better motives to kill the two little princes than Richard). But at a closer look he seems to have been a very loyal supporter of his brother king Edward IV, a renowned fighter and leader, deeply religious, a just judge and ruler - in Northern England people still speak highly of him. Richard appears to have shown promising skill and dedication early on: he was given first administrative responsibility as commissioner of array for nine counties by his brother Edward in 1464, at the age of 11 (according to P. Kendall not just nominal under the supervision of an adult, but on his own with very real powers), led fighting armies for him from the age of 17 onwards, and played an important part in Edward's victories in regaining the throne after Warwick's betrayal. And the story of his wooing Anne Neville daughter of Earl Warwick whom he'd known since childhood (but who at that time was the daughter of a traitor, widow of another, and whose steward demanded huge riches, titles and lands from him - counsellors thought he'd lost his mind when he actually agreed to pay so much for a traitor's daughter) is just touching. The sad irony though is that he, who had always been so loyal, lost his crown and life at Bosworth through treachery and betrayal.

As for his handwriting, a German-language biography of him I read (was it Eising or Kalckhoff?) showed a black-and-white photo of a letter postscript from 1483 he wrote in his own hand. A tiny Italic script, appearing almost cramped at first and hard to read for me as a modern reader - and even tinier when he wrote the final phrases along the margin (though as soon as you've got the hang of reading it, and compared to some other persons' handwritings of that time, it's comparatively neat and legible). In plain text like in that postscript it looks overall rather rounded, but with some bigger letters (stretching out upwards or downwards I mean) coming out spiky, which is even more noticeable in his signatures. When at one point of the postscript he was in a rant about the Duke of Buckingham - a trusted friend whom he had recently discovered to be a traitor stirring up a rebellion -, his handwriting became close to illegible, but it became clearer again towards the end. I've looked for a picture of that particular postscript online, but can't find any... though a transcription of it, along with examples of his handwriting in several signatures and a handwriting analysis by an expert (showing e.g. a marked difference between the public personality and the private man, a serious and withdrawn personality and hints of an inherent depression), can be found here. Richard III also seems to have had a fierce temper, which mostly he had under control but when it did surface it was terrible (and more than once he later regretted rash deeds he did under its influence).

A nice detail I found in that biography: While generally Richard spoke a rather standard version of English understandable all over the country, an observer noted that when talking to Yorkshire locals he'd fall back into their harsher Northern dialect and speak it with them. (Michael Hicks doubts this for at least until 1471; however, a translation of the Old Testament Richard owned as Duke of Gloucester - along with a Wycliffe translation of the New Testament into English; IMHO a remarkable detail in itself - actually appears to be written in a Yorkshire dialect, so it may still have been true for his later years as Lieutenant of the North.)

As King he also had his official documents written in English rather than Latin (so the English commoners could understand their own laws), and encouraged the new printing business and the import of foreign books in the legal statutes passed by his only Parliament in 1484. His personal interest in books clearly shows in his library - featuring books on different topics like history, religion, military matters, romance etc. in three languages -, and the English printer Caxton (in whose house in Bruges he had once been a guest as a child during his first exile) dedicated a book on princely conduct to King Richard III. Richard was also a patron of the University of Cambridge and founded the College of Arms (in charge of heraldry), still in existence today.


3. Professor Snape

Pro-Snape-biased as I am, I've been hoping for long that these apparent parallels to Professor Severus Snape in HP are just a coincidence, not some Jo drew on too next to those of Lucius Septimius Severus ("killed first Niger, then Albinus to become Emperor himself") - so this essay would almost not have come to pass. The Yorkshire connection, his love for books, the handwriting, the temper and the blackened reputation in spite of his loyalty all together did sound ominous for a possible connection, and Richard III isn't exactly an easy to overlook character in both English literature and history... Even if a "Bosworth"-like final charge would showcase Snape's inherent Gryffindorian traits, I don't want to see Snape killed through betrayal AND his character assassinated after his death as well - he's gotten enough of that already! Okay, a belated post-mortem rehabilitation might still do the trick... but like muggles today with regards to Richard III, wizarding folk and readers alike could still choose to either accept Snape's rehabilitation or cling to their preconceived notions, and I want things to be cleared up to everyone and once and for all, with no room for further Marauderesque slander. If King Richard didn't get that grace from revisionist Tudor history, I want at least Snape to get it from Jo.

However, next to SIP's suggestion of an essay about Snape Castle (so here it is at last ), a recent find has encouraged me to get this essay written after all - from an unexpected source, namely Jo's favourite author Jane Austen, who at the age of sixteen appears to have written a quick run-down on English history. Her depictions of the historical kings, coloured by an openly stated Yorkist bias, are a hilarious read in and of itself. But this part in particular caught my attention:

http://www.r3.org/bookcase/austen.html
Quote from: Jane Austen: THE HISTORY OF ENGLAND FROM THE REIGN OF HENRY THE 4TH TO THE DEATH OF CHARLES THE 1ST

Richard the 3rd
The Character of this Prince has been in general very severely treated by Historians, but as he was York, I am rather inclined to suppose him a very respectable Man. It has indeed been confidently asserted that he killed his two Nephews & his Wife, but it has also been declared that he did not kill his two Nephews, which I am inclined to beleive true; & if this is the case, it may also be affirmed that he did not kill his Wife, for if Perkin Warbeck was really the Duke of York, why might not Lambert Simnel be the Widow of Richard. Whether innocent or guilty, he did not reign long in peace, for Henry Tudor E. of Richmond as great a Villain as ever lived, made a great fuss about getting the Crown & having killed the King at the battle of Bosworth, he succeeded to it. (...)

This work, part of Jane Austen's Juvenilia, is dated 26 November 1791. The sixteen-year-old Austen appears to have read Walpole's Historic Doubts on the Life and Reign of Richard III (1768) or to have heard the controversy discussed at some length.

I have to say, this instills me with a faint hope that, in spite of the obvious similarities with the real Richard III, the worst may not come to pass for Snape after all. By the end of HBP he already has his reputation blackened by the mysterious "murder" of Dumbledore (I'm still holding out for that one) as much as it can get, and we've been shown quite a lot of "revisionist history" about him, filtered by both Harry and the surviving Marauders: Harry's timetable of events around the prophecy, Godric's Hollow and Snape's redemption; Snape's looks from Harry's PoV, compared to Harry-less "Spinner's End"; Young Snape's alleged "Dark Arts" fascination, which oddly enough was never brought up in SWM; and the so-called "Werewolf Prank" and its repercussions are but some of them. But underneath it all, the distorting nature of these filtered instances and hints of the "real Snape" are still visible if you only look closely enough.

IMHO, there really is no other word for what has been done to Richard III's reputation than "character assassination". After his death in valiant battle his body was treated with disrespect, his reputation was severely blackened in writing, portraits of him have been manipulated to show physical defects and an "evil character", and some crucial documents of his time seem to have disappeared (e.g. of the proof shown to the Parliament which made it accept Edward IV's alleged bigamy and hence Richard's claim to the throne, and which was mentioned in their conclusion but not detailed, no trace was left early on; also, only a single copy of Richard III's "Titulus Regius" has survived, in spite of hundreds of copies having been issued).

In history, Richard III sadly did not get a chance to survive the treachery at Bosworth and defend himself against the malicious slander heaped on his character, for history is written by the victors... but in fiction, Snape still might. I'm purely speculating here, but if Jo is aware of the controversy about Richard III (and since she's so versed in history I don't think she can have missed it) and similarly doubts the Shakespearean view of Richard like her favourite author Jane Austen... then she just might use the opportunity to "change" the outcome of the final battle, i.e. "Bosworth Field", and grant her creation Snape a better chance to survive and defend himself than what the late King Richard III had. It'd certainly be a deserved chance, and I'm rooting for it.


P.S.: In addition, there's yet another possible connection with HP a fellow fan posted over at Galadriel Waters' "New Clues" forum, based on Richard III's well-known badge of a white boar (boars in heraldry stand for courage and fierceness in fight, because a wild boar is very hard to kill):
Quote from: vaudree, Galadriel Waters' New Clues Forum
"The Hog's Head was supposed to be associated I think with Goblin rebellions. Richard III (whose symbol was a boar) was involved in a rebellion. Richard III is also a play by Shakespeare and the "Hog's Head" was made famous by Shakespeare in one of his plays - but don't know if the two are connected."

-----------

Offline biographies of Richard III
* Paul Murray Kendall: "Richard III", George Allen & Unwin (8th impression), London: 1978
(Written in 1955, it's still the standard biography of Richard III today. Very well-researched and thoroughly annotated, but at the same time highly readable. A recent paperback reprint with introduction can be found here.)
* Andreas Kalckhoff: "Richard III.", Lübbe Verlag, Bergisch Gladbach: 1980
* Karl M. Eising: "Richard III. Die weiße Rose von York", Katz, Gernsbach: 1990
(I can't remember which of the latter two biographies I borrowed in the library and read two years ago, must be one of the two above [if not the German translation of Kendall... does it have additional pictures?]. I distinctly remember among the pictures a black-and-white picture of a long postscript in King Richard III's hand, dating from 1483 and including a rant about Buckingham. Might have been the Eising biography because according to this link it has, in addition to a genealogy and a drawing, 12 pictures; no pictures are mentioned in the entry on Kalckhoff's work, and the few conclusions he repeats on his own site are unfamiliar to me.)

General online sources about Richard III, his life and times
* Wikipedia - Richard III of England: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III_of_England
* English Monarchs - Richard III: http://www.englishmonarchs.co.uk/plantagenet_14.htm
* Richard III FAQ: http://www.richardiii.net/faq.htm
* Richard III Society, England: http://www.richardiii.net/
* Richard III Society, American Branch: http://www.r3.org/
* The Society of Friends of King Richard III, based in York: http://www.silverboar.org/
* The Richard III Foundation, Inc.: http://www.richard111.com/
* "To Prove A Villain: The Real Richard III" - Online version of the 1991 Royal National Theatre exhibition: http://www.r3.org/rnt1991/index.html
* Short biography and commentary on some of the allegations (the princes, hunchback, reasons for his successor Henry Tudor to blacken Richard's reputation), by the Richard III Society's branch in New South Wales: http://www.riiinsw.com/dickie.htm
* "Richard III - A Man and His Times": http://www.richard111.com/richardiii.htm
* Biographical information on Richard III: http://www.r3.org/rnt1991/lifeuponacast.html
* Timeline of the Wars of the Roses, from 1460 onwards: http://www.northeastengland.talktalk.net/page54.htm
* A large collection of book or journal reading suggestions - ranging from original sources over 15th century basics to Ricardian non-fiction and fiction works: http://www.r3.org/bookcase/

Online sources about Richard III: specific details
* Portraits of Richard III: http://www.r3.org/rnt1991/richardsface.html
* F. Hepburn, "The Portraiture of Richard III": http://www.richardiii.net/r3%20man%20portraits.htm
* Richard III's handwriting: http://www.r3.org/rnt1991/inkandpaper.html
* His personal library: http://www.r3.org/rnt1991/bookofprayer.html
* His interests in general: http://www.richardiii.net/r3%20interests.htm
* The legal statutes passed by King Richard III's only Parliament in 1484: http://www.richard111.com/The%20Statutes...20III.htm, http://www.richardiii.net/r3%20parliament.htm
* Wikipedia - Council of the North (administrative body set up by Richard III in 1484): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_the_North
* Richard, Duke of Gloucester and the North: http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/ar...hicks2.htm
* Richard III's boar badge: http://www.r3.org/rnt1991/deadlyboar.html
* History of the College of Arms (records heraldic coats of arms), founded by Richard III: http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/About/01.htm
* Yorkshire dialect and accent today (including Dales accent): http://halfvalue.com/wiki.jsp?topic=York...and_accent
* Richard III's "supposed crimes" portrayed by Shakespeare et al. - myth and contemporary evidence: http://www.r3.org/rnt1991/supposedcrimes.html; http://www.richard111.com/richard_iii__shakespeare.htm
* Online library "Whodunit?", of the Richard III Society American Branch - about the mystery of the Little Princes: http://www.r3.org/bookcase/whodunit.html
* An alternate (rather "Da Vinci Code"ish IMHO) theory about the fate of the two princes: http://www.holbeinartworks.org/

Places
* Snape Local History Group: http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/slhg/
* Snape Castle: http://www.historic-uk.com/stayuk/North-...Castle.htm
* Snape Castle, more photos: http://www.ecastles.co.uk/snape.html
* Snape Castle and Chapel, history: http://www.snapecastlechapel.co.uk/page3.html
* Some northern properties owned by Richard III: http://www.richard111.com/Lord%20of%20the%20North.htm
* Middleham Castle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middleham_Castle
* History of Middleham: http://www.middlehamonline.com/page4.htm
* Yorkshire Dales (including examples of the dialect): http://webdelsol.com/LITARTS/Literary_Ex...dales.html
* York, Richard III Museum: http://www.richardiiimuseum.co.uk/html/about.htm
* 360° Quicktime Movie of the Richard III Museum in York: http://www.york360.co.uk/panoramic-tour-of-york.html
* Bosworth Field - texts and sources, photo gallery, maps, In Memoriam notices, discussion of alternative location: http://www.r3.org/bosworth/index.html

Selected historical novels
* Charlotte Kaufmann: "Die Rose von York: König Richard III. und Ann Neville" (1985)
(the book that got me interested in the topic in the first place... painting a picture of Richard III that was so completely different from Shakespeare's that I just had to find out more )
* Josephine Tey: "The Daughter of Time" (1951)
* Sharon Kay Penman: "The Sunne in Splendour" (1982)
* Sandra Worth: "The Rose of York: Love & War" (2003), "The Rose of York: Crown of Destiny" (2006), "The Rose of York: Fall from Grace" (2007)
* John M. Ford: "The Dragon Waiting" (1983)
(According to the description this last book is a fantasy AU novel, in a Late Middle Age England that is subtly different: here Roman Emperor Julian had managed to abolish Christian beliefs, and so we get Roman and Celtic mythology, Mithraic rites, magic and vampires instead. Sounds like a rather quirky treatment of the subject... but there just might be some fellow HP nerds who like the idea as much as I do. )

Other texts
* "Pursuing the White Boar - Approaches to Teaching Richard III", by Richard Oberdorfer: http://www.r3.org/oberdr.html
* "A meditation upon the life of Richard III", by Dr. Ronald Stockton: http://www.r3.org/bosworth/stockton.html
* Jane Austen - "Excerpts from her history of England, a hilarious juvenile send-up of the Ricardian controversy, written in November 1791 when she was sixteen": http://www.r3.org/bookcase/austen.html
* Livejournal entry by "Ricardienne" on Shakespeare's Richard III and Snape (no, that's not me, though I do happen to share her opinions on both men): http://ricardienne.livejournal.com/2005/09/21/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Sly_Lady
July 5th, 2007 - 11:11 AM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Serpentine, I'm humbled. I should run away and hang out at an ordinary forum with idiots posting about their favorite ships.

This is marvelous. I've known in general that Richard III had some bad PR. but I feel educated and enlightened. I want to know more about him now. Also, you brought in Jane Austen's opinion. I love this essay!

~~~

ignisia
July 5th, 2007 - 12:07 PM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Excellent work, Serpentine! Some parts were really interesting, like Austen referrring to Richard III as a "Prince" (lol), and that his body was somehow "disrespected" (What was done to it? Or do I not want to know? ). We know how much JKR does not like dead bodies being mutilated. Remember her reaction to Hector's body being dragged behind Achilles' chariot?


Serpentine
July 5th, 2007 - 2:09 PM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Thanks for your kind comments, Sly_Lady and ignisia!

Do read up on him if you like, Sly Lady, you sure won't regret it. As starting points I'd suggest either the Kendall biography or Penman's novel "Sunne in Splendour".

Quote: from: ignisia
Excellent work, Serpentine! Some parts were really interesting, like Austen referrring to Richard III as a "Prince" (lol), and that his body was somehow "disrespected" (What was done to it? Or do I not want to know? ).


Well, you did ask for it...

The exact details of the "indignities" done to him still on the battlefield are not specified (hmm, I'm not sure I want to know either... ), but afterwards he seems to have been trussed naked over a horse, carried to Leicester and paraded through the streets in triumph. His corpse was exposed to public view (accounts differ on where - Greyfriars, St Mary's, the town hall?), before finally being buried at Greyfriars. His successor king Henry VII contributed £10 toward the cost of a tomb and had a tombstone with engraving erected; way more than it looks like today, but not exactly a royal sum either.

http://www.r3.org/bosworth/chron2.html
http://www.r3.org/bosworth/burial_hutton.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III_of_England
http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?au...y=bosworth
http://www.r3.org/rnt1991/nearleicester.html

The last part about the desecration of the tomb during the dissolution of the monasteries and the bones thrown into the river Soar may be a legend though. At least the Leicester City Guide disputes it, saying that he's still buried at the old chapel of Greyfriars (the building doesn't exist anymore, the cemetery area now seems to be under a car park).

http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/leicester...23496.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III...f_Bosworth


Quote: from: ignisia
We know how much JKR does not like dead bodies being mutilated. Remember her reaction to Hector's body being dragged behind Achilles' chariot?


Hmm, I don't remember how she reacted, never heard about it. But if it's true that she dislikes that kind of treatment, maybe there is still hope... What did she say, is it mentioned in any interview? Accio Quote doesn't have a category for The Battle of Troy.

~~~

ignisia
July 5th, 2007 - 2:16 PM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Ugh...Well, at least he was dead and so didn't know about it...

Here's the JKR quote:

Quote:Saving Cedric's body reminded me of the Hector Patroclus Achilles triangle in the Iliad.

JKR: That's where it came from. That really, really, REALLY moved me when I read that when I was 19. The idea of the desecration of a body, a very ancient idea... I was thinking of that when Harry saved Cedric's body.

~~~

Serpentine
July 5th, 2007 - 3:39 PM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Thanks for that quote, ignisia!! If she really does feel so strongly about it, it does give me hope.

Just seen that Monkshood has at last found the scene with Ron's violent chess bishop Jo insisted on keeping in (shiny new chess thread in the Literature section!):

Quote from: Jo in The Herald, interview 2000
In Philosopher's Stone I had a game of chess between Harry and Ron which Ron won by using a particularly violent bishop. My editor made me take it out. He didn't want me to have a bad bishop. Well, he's back, I have a different editor now." Source

Quote from: CoS, chapter 11
Harry fretted about this next to the fire in the Gryffindor common room, while Ron and Hermione used their time off to play a game of wizard chess.

"For heaven's sake, Harry," said Hermione, exasperated, as one of Ron's bishops wrestled her knight off his horse and dragged him off the board. "Go and find Justin if it's so important to you."

So Harry got up and left through the portrait hole, wondering where Justin might be.


Can't help it, but that reminds me of what happened to Richard III at Bosworth. But then again, I'm biased...

http://www.r3.org/rnt1991/bosworthfield.html
Quote from: To Prove a Villain - Bosworth
Aware that hope of victory depended on enlisting Stanley's reinforcement, Henry, with a small bodyguard, rode out toward them. This movement was observed by Richard, who, with his household knights, charged down on horseback to intercept them and possibly end the conflict in personal combat with Henry. He came close to success, killing Sir William Brandon, Henry's standard bearer, unhorsing Sir John Cheyney, and Henry himself was brought into great danger; but at the crucial moment the Stanley forces rode to Henry's rescue. Richard was unhorsed, but continued to defend himself, valiantly refusing to flee, until at the last 'pierced with numerous and deadly wounds, he fell in the field like a brave and valiant Prince', according to the Croyland Chronicler. Even the hostile John Rous says 'he bore himself like a noble soldier and despite his little body and feeble strength, honourably defended himself to his last breath, often exclaiming he was betrayed and crying Treason! Treason! Treason!' Vergil, too, admits that 'King Richard alone was killed fighting manfully in the thickest press of his enemies.'

~~~

Monkshood
July 5th, 2007 - 4:15 PM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Actually I just found the scene and I'm getting ready to add it to the list. It was in chapter 23 of GoF after all. I'm not sure why I couldn't find it earlier.

This comes right after a letter from Sirius which congratulates Harry and warns him to be careful.

Quote from: GoF 23
"Yeah, okay," said Harry. Then, spotting the look on Hermione's face, he said, "Come on, how am I supposed to concentrate with all this noise going on? I won't even be able to hear the egg over this lot."

"Oh I suppose not," she sighed, and she sat down to watch their chess match, which culminated in an exciting checkmate of Ron's, involving a couple of recklessly brave pawns and a very violent bishop.

I can't imagine why this scene needed to be removed. Anyway, thanks for the plug for the chess thread, Serpentine. People are welcome to copy over their old chess posts if they want.

Err...back to Richard III and Snape.

~~~

Serpentine
July 5th, 2007 - 4:43 PM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Thanks anyway, Monkshood. Very violent bishop and recklessly brave pawns... I still feel that it's fitting somehow - can't say why, call it gut feeling. Perkin Warbeck and Lambert Simnel making life difficult for Henry VII?

As for the oh-so-good "bishop" Richard was facing on horseback, and who later claimed to have ended the Wars of the Roses by marrying Richard's niece Elizabeth of York ("the red rose to the white"):

It's interesting to note Henry VII's official version of the battle passed in Parliament in November 1485, resp. the fact that he actually predated his own accession to the Crown by one day (to Aug 21st), thus portraying Richard "late duke of Gloucester, calling and naming himself, by ursurpation, King Richard the Third" and his nobles as a gang of traitors conspiring against the "real" king Henry VII, "in the first year of reign of our sovereign lord". I couldn't believe it either until I saw the rendition of the Parliamental Record, but it's true: he really did attaint his predecessor King Richard and the nobles who did follow him! History is written by the victors...
http://www.r3.org/bosworth/chron1.html
This unlikely official version is offset by the account of a Londoner of the same battle on Aug 22nd, quoted directly below and correctly identifying the main participators as "earl of Richmond" and "King Richard III".

Also, the engraving on the tombstone he commissioned for Richard III already shows Henry VII's version of Evil!Richard. Talk about revisionist history!
http://www.r3.org/bosworth/burial_hutton.html (scroll down to the bottom)

Interesting to note - a Castilian source mentions a vassal named Salazar (!) who suggested to Richard to flee but was refused (side note - don't laugh, the "van" means the vanguard, NOT a large four-wheeled motor vehicle):
Quote from: Diego de Valera, Castilian courtier, early 1486
(...) 'When King Richard was certified of the near approach of Earl Henry in battle array, he ordered his lines and entrusted the van to his grand chamberlain with 7,000 fighting men. My Lord "Tamerlant" with King Richard's left wing left his position and passed in front of the king's vanguard with 10,000 men, then, turning his back on Earl Henry, he began to fight fiercely against the king's van, and so did all the others who had plighted their faith to Earl Henry. Now when Salazar, your little vassal, who was there in King Richard's service, saw the treason of the king's people, he went up to him and said: "Sire, take steps to put your pers on in safety, without expecting to have the victory in today's battle, owing to the manifest treason in your following". But the king replied: "Salazar, God forbid I yield one step. This day I will die as king or win". Then he placed over his head-armour the crown royal, which they declare be worth 120,000 crowns, and having donned his coat-of-arms began to fight with much vigour, putting heart into those that remained loyal, so that by his sole effort he upheld the battle for a long time. But in the end the king's army was beaten and he himself was killed, and in this battle above 10,000 are said to have perished, on both sides. Salazar fought bravely, but for all this was able to escape. There died most of those who loyally served the king, and there was lost all the king's treasure, which he brought with him into the field. After winning this victory Earl Henry was at once acclaimed king by all parties. He ordered the dead king to be placed in a little hermitage near the place of battle, and had him covered from the waist downward with a black rag of poor quality, ordering him to be exposed there for three days to the universal gaze.'

http://www.r3.org/bosworth/chron3.html

I really do hope that Jo doesn't let the Marauders get away with passing their own revisionist history and their version of Evil!Snape on to Harry. Such a kind of character assassination by blatant lies, omissions, distortion and even physical manhandling - in particular when the persons attacked can't defend themselves - is something I feel really strongly about, and which IMHO neither Richard III nor Snape deserve, no matter what kind of feelings they may have evoked in their opponents.


Arithmancer
July 5th, 2007 - 9:17 PM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Goddlefrood of HP Essays on LJ, brings up another Snape in one of his essays there. This is a village in Suffolk (East England). It is noted for an archeological discovery there, a massive signet ring with a black stone reminiscent of the Peverell Ring in HP. Just a cool fact to toss into the mix - the ring can be seen at the page below (to the official site of the village of Snape).

http://www.snapevillage.org.uk/indexfr.h....html~info


Serpentine
July 6th, 2007 - 4:50 AM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Interesting indeed, Arithmancer! A signet ring in the Suffolk Snape... not with the Peverell coat of arms, but the black stone is close enough nonetheless. (Good that this one isn't cracked, it'd really be a loss!) Now I'm wondering even more what Jo's use of the Peverell coat of arms is supposed to mean? It's not like it has anything to do with the Gaunt or Slytherin family directly.

This reminds me of another famous jewel though, a reliquary pendant from the 2nd half of the 15th century (i.e. Warwick the Kingmaker's and Richard III's time) found in 1985 near Middleham Castle with a metal detector. Lozenge-shaped, made of gold with a cabochon sapphire on the front, beautifully engraved on the front (the Trinity) and back side (Nativity scene). It realised 1.3 million pounds in an auction, but in order to keep this exquisite jewel in the country the Yorkshire Museum raised 2.5 million pounds in a fundraising campaign.
http://www.middlehamonline.com/page4.htm
http://richardiii.net/2001%20archive.htm


http://www.ceu.hu/medstud/manual/SRM/types.htm

Apart from this pendant there was also an engraved ring found on the site (the Middleham ring), but it is from a different time period (1380-1420) and does not look like a signet ring either.

Middleham jewel and ring, in the Yorkshire Museum, York: http://www.artfund.org/search/gallery/27...nd-gardens

(English native speakers: can a "reliquary pendant" be subsumed unter the term "locket"? My Webster dictionary says a locket is "a small case usually of precious metal that has space for a memento and that is usually worn suspended from a neck chain", so it sounds like it can... but I'm not sure because I haven't seen this pendant ever being called a "locket" anywhere. )

~~~

Shewoman
July 6th, 2007 - 6:40 AM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
I'm a big Richard III fan (and a Snape fan as well, of course), so I really enjoyed this essay. I see the Tey book in your bibliography--is that the one that got you going on R3?

It is amazing how what everyone "knows" about R3 isn't true. Thomas More, Chancellor for the Tudor Henry VII, wrote a history in which he really trashed the king Henry VII killed (which makes him a good lackey and a bad historian). I believe that during Richard's lifetime there's only one reference to be found in England suggesting that R3 had his nephews killed. My favorite weirdness that this requires is that the mother of the princes who were apparently killed in the Tower to have been a part of Richard's court after the time the murders were supposed to have happened; she and her daughters went to Richard's parties. And they must have been great parties for a woman whose sons were murdered by the host to attend!

It is, of course, the Tudors who had a history of killing alternate heirs to the throne. It's more likely that Henry VII killed those boys. He killed a number of York heirs--Henry VIII continued that tradition.

I wasn't aware of all the Snape parallels. It does seem that a lot of what people in general "know" about Snape isn't true. Great work, Serpentine!

~~~

PotionStudent
July 6th, 2007 - 12:15 PM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Great essay! As a Frenchwoman, I did not know much about Richard III (and hasn't been among my Shakespeare reads yet), so that was very interesting.

~~~

Silver Ink Pot
July 6th, 2007 - 5:22 PM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
And I, as a typical American, didn't know much about Richard III, but I sure do now!

Awesome essay, Serpentine, and your Source list is so scholarly - that took alot of time to assemble! Brilliant work!

About the desecration of the body - I brought that up in my Green Light essay, because Snape managed to get Dumbledore's body off the Tower so it couldn't be desecrated there. "Remember Cedric Diggory."

I tend to think that Snape has to be from Yorkshire for a number of reasons:
• Spinner's End - the Textile Industry and the Factory Tower.
• Roman History - Septimus Severus died in Yorkshire
• Snape "Victorious" which is a Roman term used in dedications along Hadrian's Wall, which were Vows made on the graves of the dead, or Vows to the Roman gods or local Celtic gods.
• JKR's love of the north country - in her biography called HP and Me on BBC she mentioned "Barry Hines and Kes" - the book/movie about a Yorkshire boy who learns falconry to escape his dreary life, and a teacher who becomes his friend:
Quote from: JKR
As I moved into my teens I was into very dramatic, gritty realism, entirely influenced by Barry Hines and Kes. Unfortunately I didn’t live in a northern town. My urban landscape wasn’t very developed because I lived in Chepstow, in the middle of a lot of fields and it’s quite hard to be a disaffected urban youth in the middle of a muddy field.



There's the V for Victorious again!
• The Snape name comes from Yorkshire - from "Sneap" meaning either "low wet meadow" or "S'nupp" meaning "poor ground" or "has nothing." There is also the name "Haresnape" which comes from Yorkshire - see the "Rabbit Thread."
• The Neville Family connection to Snape Castle. Neville Longbottom says that his Uncle tossed him off Blackpool Pier - also in Yorkshire.
• Snape asking about "Ripper" the dog - there was a criminal called "The Yorkshire Ripper," but he didn't resemble Snape - he resembled Peter Pettigrew! And his name was ... "Peter Sutcliffe." Also, the Yorkshire preyed on women, just as Peter preyed on Bertha Jorkins.
That's all I can think of for now - but it's enough to convince me!

~~~

Serpentine
July 6th, 2007 - 6:46 PM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Thank you all, Shewoman, PotionStudent and Silver Ink Pot!

Shewoman - no, the Tey book isn't the one that got me hooked, though I did get that one later on too. It was the German-language novel by Kaufmann (what can I say, I'm German ).

Actually I got interested in Richard III at nearly the same time as in HP, though the penny about a connection with Snape dropped only after HBP. It was the time of the big GoF hype and the 1st movie, I'd just gotten back from London and been turned into an addict by reading PS/SS, and needed to read the three sequels, so I went to the Rotterdam library. The English original versions of PoA were all borrowed by others and I didn't want to wait until one of them might return (early signs of an addict ), so I grabbed a copy from their Dutch section and, being there already, looked around for some other interesting reading in my native tongue. Goethe, Walser and the like are not exactly the kind to sit down and relax with, and I'm not the kind of person to enjoy the kind of shallow love-stories that only seem to stand in libraries because their original owner wanted to get rid of them. But I do enjoy well-written historical novels, and there just happened to be this nice historical novel by a German author about Richard III and Anne Neville ("Richard III? Hmm, that rings a bell, Shakespeare of course... but I don't recall anything about a love story there, only loads of murders and Evilness All Around... need to find out what this is all about"). And the rest is, um, history.

SIP - oops, sorry! I didn't mean the list to come across as so overwhelming. It's just that I wanted to verify all the facts again and, if possible, make them verifiable for others online... and I guess I did go a bit overboard with it. But hey, when the "facts" "everyone" believes to know about R3 have been so thoroughly distorted (love the nickname, Shewoman! There are also the - IMHO rather affectionate - nicknames "Dickie" and "Diccon" for him reported, though I have no idea whether anyone actually called him that to his face), maybe that isn't a bad thing to do after all.

~~~

Paradox
July 6th, 2007 - 6:51 PM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Yorkshire makes good sense. From the description of a decadent manufacturing center with accompanying poverty in HBP, I had assumed either the vicinity of Manchester or Birmingham (Coventry, specifically), but I think you've assembled enough evidence to make Yorkshire the prime suspect.

Incidentally, if you look at the Google map, you'll find Potterton (!) on the A-64 just about four km south-west of Bramham (which is on the A-1), and about 5 km further west-south-west you'll find Potternewton in the north-east section of Leeds.

Or not so incidentally...

Oh yeah- and according to here, when Bathurst Edward Wilkinson, the owner of Potterton Hall, sold out in 1917, Lot 8 of the sale was known as Potterton Grange Farm. So obviously there was a granger involved...

~~~

Silver Ink Pot
July 6th, 2007 - 9:13 PM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Paradox: That is so wild! I never thought of searching for "Potterton" in Yorkshire!

JKR lived in Manchester with her boyfriend after college, and it was on the train to Manchester that she thought up the story of Harry!

About the name "Diccon" or "Dickon" - short for Richard. One of the best characters in Children's Literature is Dickon from "The Secret Garden" which is set on the Yorkshire Moors. He's a boy who loves animals, and he's similar to Robin in JKR's favorite book, The Little White Horse.

I have written elsewhere that Archibald Craven in the Secret Garden reminds me of Snape - dressed in black, forbidding appearance, upset about a lost love, unable to be happy. Very gothic!

~~~

Serpentine
July 8th, 2007 - 4:53 AM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Just to add to what SIP said about "Spinner's End" in an industrial area of Yorkshire: HBP chapter 2 with the small decrepit houses and the textile mill gave me a North England / Yorkshire vibe as well (reminds me of the place in "Billy Elliot"; where was that, Sheffield?), and in "The Other Place"'s Dev of Sev quepato was so kind to post this awesome link way back:
Quote from: quepato
For those wondering where Spinner's End is, here is a LJ I found:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/junedia...39235.html

There are some good pictures aswell


Yeah, I'm aware that "Dickon / Diccon" is just short for Richard (if the boy in The Secret Garden is also from Yorkshire, could that possibly be a northern form?). Still... to me it sounds rather affectionate. The way you're being called by people you're close to.

By the way: as it happens, Henry Stafford Duke of Buckingham seems to have been called "Harry", and in the Three Signatures Document he even actually signed that way. The graphologist's view on his "carelessly sprawled" and "sinuous" handwriting is rather ... interesting.

http://www.r3.org/rnt1991/mysovereignking.html
http://www.r3.org/rnt1991/inkandpaper.html

~~~

Treacle Tartlet
July 11th, 2007 - 5:29 AM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Excellent essay, Serpentine! I just had to read this essay, as Richard lll is one of my favourite monarchs, which is probably for some reasons due to the mystery that surrounds his reputation. Rather like Snape. As a bit of a history freak, I have read a few books in the past on Richard, but I hadn't thought to connect him with Snape before now.

Quote:P.S.: In addition, there's yet another possible connection with HP a fellow fan posted over at Galadriel Waters' "New Clues" forum, based on Richard III's well-known badge of a white boar (boars in heraldry stand for courage and fierceness in fight, because a wild boar is very hard to kill):


This reminded me that Richard lll's coat of arms which features the two white boars, also bears the motto, 'Loyaltie me lie', which means, loyalty binds me. I think I may be correct to assume that most of us here believe that Snape is bound by his loyalty to Dumbledore.


Quote: from: Serpentine on July 06, 2007, 04:50:48 AM
Now I'm wondering even more what Jo's use of the Peverell coat of arms is supposed to mean? It's not like it has anything to do with the Gaunt or Slytherin family directly.



There is a legend that the Peverell family of Whittington castle in Shropshire were the supposed guardians of the Holy Grail.

Quote:from: Silver Ink Pot on July 06, 2007, 05:22:51 PM
I tend to think that Snape has to be from Yorkshire for a number of reasons:

Silver Ink Pot, your list suggesting Snape hails from Yorkshire does make sense, although, I like Paradox immediately thought of the Lancashire mill towns around Manchester. However, that could be because I am more familiar with that part of the country. I hope you don't mind me pointing out though, that Blackpool pier is actually in Lancashire and not Yorkshire. Something like this could start another War of the Roses.

~~~

Serpentine
July 11th, 2007 - 11:27 AM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Quote: from: Treacle Tartlet
There is a legend that the Peverell family of Whittington castle in Shropshire were the supposed guardians of the Holy Grail.

Really? If so, that would be highly interesting... There does seem to be some connection between the Hufflepuff and Slytherin items (Slytherin "water" should be the cup and "Hufflepuff "earth" the locket or coin, but it's the other way round; it might be similar with Ravenclaw/Gryffindor and swords/wands). Do you remember which was the source of that information? I tried to look it up, but all I got was a list of various HP threads on different sites discussing that same legend, but not specifying a source.

Quote:from: Treacle Tartlet
This reminded me that Richard lll's coat of arms which features the two white boars, also bears the motto, 'Loyaltie me lie', which means, loyalty binds me. I think I may be correct to assume that most of us here believe that Snape is bound by his loyalty to Dumbledore.


Definitely!! Now that you say it, I'm noticing that I seem to have forgotten to mention that particular detail in my essay! You'd think that I'd remember, seeing that beautiful motto every day in my screensaver. (BTW, RedHen even used it as a title for one of her Snape essays: http://www.redhen-publications.com/Loyaulte.html)

I find it highly intriguing by the way that Richard III used this motto from 1483 onwards; he had used others before, but I find none of them as beautiful and as telling as this one. Its first documented appearance seems to be on the "Three Signatures Document" from early May 1483 (between Stony Stratford and St Albans) as Lord Protector for the realm of the boy king, together with the signatures of Edward V and Henry Duke of Buckingham... together with that of the boy king he's later accused by More and Shakespeare to have murdered, and with that of his cousin and friend who later turned traitor on him (and is excused for it by More and Shakespeare because of Richard III's "evil" character ).

Sorry for perhaps being obnoxious, but I can't get over the graphologist's handwriting analysis of these signatures (http://www.r3.org/rnt1991/inkandpaper.html). Here they are:


Quote from: R3, RNT 1991 - Give me some ink and paper
(...)

This scrap of parchment, cut from its original context by an 18th century autograph collector, probably represents an attempt by Richard and Buckingham to gain the confidence of their far from friendly young king Edward V, between Stony Stratford and St. Albans 2-3 May 1483. At the top in a regally large and rather stiff hand 'Edwardus Quintus;' next is inscribed, neater than his usual hand 'Loyaulte me lie' (loyalty binds me -- Richard's later motto); sprawled broad and carelessly across the bottom appears 'Souvente me souvene' (remember me often) 'Harry Bokyngham.' The signatures, as well as their mottos, are not without symbolic value.

[British Library Cotton Vespasian Ms. F XIII f 123] (...)

Richard's writing:
A graphologist's view

Richard's writing tells a story -- a story of contrasts and shift-patterns of behavior, as it traces his development from a young man of seventeen to the final years of his life.

There is the public man, with his great, formidable, embellished signatures, emphasizing the importance of the signatory: we have, by contrast, the small and modest signatures, written in his devotional books, written for himself alone - the private man, removed from the need to impress and intimidate. And then there is the mysterious document containing his signature and motto, together with those of the young King Edward, and Buckingham.

Placed high on this document, and presumably the first to be written is the boy king's wavering and uncertainly directed writing. It has a refined and somewhat spiritual quality. It is not robust, but it would be unwise to deduce too much from such a small sample. Well below this are the signatures of the two men. Richard's, strong and clear, is centrally placed and beautifully spaced. His is the writing to which our eyes are first drawn. Of the three, he is the only person of real substance. As usual, he dominates the scene. The inherent depression is plain to see, but not as an overwhelming force.

Finally, we see Buckingham's flattened, threadlike letter-forms. This writing is a fine example of an elusive, sinuous character whose chief ability lay in his avoidance of all decisions, his susceptibility to persuasion, and the ease with which he could glide away into thin air, leaving no trace. A "most untrue creature" indeed. (...)


"Loyaulté me lie"... the Lord Protector to his minor king. Just like Snape is IMHO bound by loyalty to the same Headmaster and Order leader Dumbledore, whom he is now accused to have murdered in cold blood. I just hope that Snape will be able to deal with any possible Buckinghams coming his way... but then again, Richard III was (it was Henry Tudor who managed to defeat him, not with any fighting skill but by buying several of his nobles, and he seems to have been in cahoots with Buckingham as well when the duke revolted).

~~~

Treacle Tartlet
July 12th, 2007 - 3:23 AM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Quote:from: Serpentine on July 11, 2007, 11:27:29 AM
Quote:from: Treacle Tartlet
There is a legend that the Peverell family of Whittington castle in Shropshire were the supposed guardians of the Holy Grail.


Really? If so, that would be highly interesting... There does seem to be some connection between the Hufflepuff and Slytherin items (Slytherin "water" should be the cup and "Hufflepuff "earth" the locket or coin, but it's the other way round; it might be similar with Ravenclaw/Gryffindor and swords/wands). Do you remember which was the source of that information? I tried to look it up, but all I got was a list of various HP threads on different sites discussing that same legend, but not specifying a source.


The first time I heard about this was on a local TV programme years ago. However, I have done some searching and found this.

http://www.britannia.com/history/arthur/marian.html
The Tradition: At the crucifixion, it was not St. Joseph of Arimathea, but St. Mary Magdalene who tended to Christ and collected his blood in a small cup which thence became known as the "Marian Chalice". It was supposedly found by St. Helen when she excavated Christ's tomb in the early 4th century. It was taken to Rome, but was later removed to Britain when the city was sacked by the Visigoths in AD 410.

The Theory: Graham Phillips believes that the real Holy Grail was a secret Christian book, the Gospel of Thomas, a copy of which was discovered in Egypt in 1945. However, he also theorises that, through the belief that the Grail was a cup, it was confused with the legendary Marian Chalice. His hypothesis supposes that the chalice would have been brought to the chief 5th century City of Britain, Caer-Guricon (Wroxeter), which he and Martin Keatman identify as the capital of their King Arthur. The great King and his descendants are therefore seen as the Grail guardians: a lineage which he traces to Payne Peveril, the original of Percival, and on to his great grandson Sir Fulk FitzWaryn. Sir Fulk is the subject of a long rambling 13th century ballad which claims that the Grail was housed in his private chapel at Whittington Castle in Shropshire. It was removed to Alberbury Priory on his death, from where a further descendant, Robert Vernon, recovered it in the late 16th century. It was eventually hidden in a statue of St. John erected in Hawkstone Park, near the family estate, in the 1850s. Here a small Roman onyx scent jar was discovered in 1934. Is this the Holy Grail?

Possible interpretations & Criticism: Phillips' ideas are long and complicated and his conclusions rely heavily on previous argument, particularly his identification of King Arthur as a supposed ruler of Caer-Guricon named Owain Danwyn (White-Tooth). The Fulk FitzWaryn connection is an intriguing grail-link which has never been satisfactorily explained and Phillips makes a good attempt at explaining it, though the ancestral grail inheritance into the 1850s is not terribly convincing.


Also this:

http://www.gnostictemplars.org/articles/...ails_2.pdf

Quote
Mary Magadalene is also associated with a chalice that may, instead of her jar, be the real Holy Grail of legend. Some scholars contend that Mary’s chalice was part of the Arma Christi, the “Weapons of Christ,” a name for the relics of the Passion that were discovered in Jerusalem where Jesus was supposedly crucified. According to the 5th century historian Olympiodorous, Mary’s Grail, referred to as the Marian Chalice, was discovered by excavators working for the Empress Helena, the mother of King Constantine, as they sifted through the earth in the area of Golgotha, the reputed location of the Crucifixion. After its retrieval the cup was first taken to Constantinople and then to Rome, where it resided until the city was sacked by the Visigoths, at which point it was transferred to a secret location in England, possibly Glastonbury. According to Graham Philips, British author of The Search for the Grail, the Marian Chalice was taken to the English Midlands, where for centuries, as a stone cup made of onyx, it was carefully preserved by the Peverel family of Whittington Castle. Sometime in the mid 19th century, a Peverel descendent transferred the cup to a hidden stone grotto, where it was later found by Walter Langham in the early 20th century and kept by his family. When Philips discovered the location of the Langham family nearly one hundred years later, he also found the onyx vessel. Since then, the jar has been dated by the British Museum and found to be a spice jar used during the first century after Christ.
But Philips’ conclusion that the Peverel cup is the Marian Chalice has not gained wide acceptance.


And more about Whittington castle:

http://www.shropshiretourism.info/castles/whittington

Quote
Whittington Castle is very impressive and picturesque, situated in the heart of Whittington village.

Although little remains today of Whittington Castle to suggest the glory of its magnificent hay-day, the gatehouse towers are still standing, reflected in the clear water of the moat, home to a small community of swans and ducks.

Whittington Castle looks especially good when floodlit, with the light reflected in the water of the moat.

The famous Bishop Howe, a son of Shrewsbury and author of the hymn 'For All The Saints', was a rector of the Georgian church in Whittington for 28 years.

The village of Whittington, near Oswestry is the setting for the remains of a feudal fortress.

Whittington Castle is first mentioned in 1138, when it was fortified by the Norman Chief, William Peverell against King Stephen.

William Peverell the reputed son of William the Conqueror, who had fought at the Battle of Hastings in 1066 was given property and lordships in Derbyshire and he was also awarded Whittington castle.

William Peverell demolished the original wooden castle and replaced it with one built from stone.

The Castles position on the border with wales gave it a valuable role in history and the Peverells held it until the twelfth century.

On the death of William Peverell, the castle passed to his son Pain Peverell, who in turn left it to his son William. This is where the male right to succession seemed to end, as William had no son, only two daughters.

In the early twelfth century, ownership of Whittington Castle passed from the Peverells to Warine de Metz who became founder of the line of Fulk-Warines. Warine de Metz was succeeded by Fulk Fitz Warine, his son, who was knighted by Henry the First.


The first thing I noticed was the 3 different spellings of the name; Peveril, Peverel, and Peverell. Of course this is not unusual. Even though Graham Phillips' theory does not seem to hold water, it is still an interesting story. Anyway, I hope you find it of some interest.

Quote
I find it highly intriguing by the way that Richard III used this motto from 1483 onwards; he had used others before, but I find none of them as beautiful and as telling as this one. Its first documented appearance seems to be on the "Three Signatures Document" from early May 1483 (between Stony Stratford and St Albans) as Lord Protector for the realm of the boy king, together with the signatures of Edward V and Henry Duke of Buckingham... together with that of the boy king he's later accused by More and Shakespeare to have murdered, and with that of his cousin and friend who later turned traitor on him (and is excused for it by More and Shakespeare because of Richard III's "evil" character ).



That is interesting! I hadn't realised that he had changed his motto; and I agree with you it is very telling indeed.


Serpentine Wrote:Sorry for perhaps being obnoxious, but I can't get over the graphologist's handwriting analysis of these signatures


No no no, Serpentine never obnoxious, just enthusistic!


Over the past few weeks I have being re-reading all the HP books, and I just remembered another connection with Richard lll and Hogwarts. In the chapter 'The Sorting Hat's New Song', in Ootp, as they are approaching Hogwarts the gates are described as having two tall pillars either side with two winged boars on top.

Lastly, I was looking up mill towns, just like one does to in order to avoid doing the housework, anyway, I came across this which I thought you all may find amusing.


http://www.cottontown.org/page.cfm?pagei...nguage=eng
Quote
India Mill: History


The single most important textile building in Darwen, possibly of North-East Lancashire. Built between 1859-71 by Eccles Shorrock & Company. The architect was E. Bates of Manchester. Stone was quarried at Darwen Mill and Cadshaw. Much of the building was completed in mid-1860s, including the massive chimney, but machinery was not installed until 1870-71.

Two 125 hp W. & J.Yates beam engines, 51" cylinders 6" stroke (later McNaughted by the makers) were started 1871, and by 1873 the mill contained 168 cards and 67 mule spindles.

Eccles Shorrock, Brother & Company appear to have been ruined by the costs of the mill and the effects of the Cotton Famine, and in 1874 the India Mills Cotton Spinning Company Limited was formed to purchase, complete and run the mill. The promoters were Eccles Shorrock (Ashton), Richard Eccles of Lower Darwen Mills, William Snape C.& J.G.Potter, Joseph Shorrock and Joseph Eccles, Darwen manufacturer.


Now just what are the odds on finding the names Snape and Potter together outside of a Harry Potter book?

~~~

The Black Adder
July 12th, 2007 - 6:01 PM
Re: Snape Castle, Richard III and Professor Snape
________________________________________
Serpentine, congratulations on a very fine and insightful essay! Forgive me for not getting over here sooner, as I actually read your essay days ago. I do remember reading your theory in the email sometime back (don't recall it having been a "rant" ). In any case, the information seems to have sunk in a little better into my brain while reading about it again.

Unlike these other educated people on the thread, I didn't really know anything about Richard III. (And what I did know was thoroughly contaminated by Atkinson's Black Adder satirical history, don't you know) But both your probable alternate history as well as the parallels with Snape and the HP story are quite intriguing. Well done!
(This post was last modified: 06-01-2012 07:51 AM by Silver Ink Pot.)
05-13-2012 05:49 AM
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
Greetings from London (still on holidays, posting from Titania´s computer) - and some news from BBC, freshly in this morning:

bbc.co.uk: "Is Richard the Third buried in a car park?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19373639

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.
Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
(Dumbledore in 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire')


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I trust Severus Snape
08-24-2012 07:14 PM
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Et tu? Offline
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
I wonder if they have heard ghostly whispers of, "A Honda! a Honda! My kingdom for a Honda!" Big Grin
08-25-2012 02:57 AM
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Serpentine Offline
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
Big Grin That quote may well be a Shakespeare invention though. It wouldn't surprise me at all, seeing how far away the facts about Richard III are from the Shakespearean [strikethrough]slander[/strikethrough] play, written in a Tudor reign.

But that excavation would certainly help to clear up the question if that legend of Richard III's bones thrown into the river Soar was true or not...

myself, above, written back in 2007 Wrote:(...) The last part about the desecration of the tomb during the dissolution of the monasteries and the bones thrown into the river Soar may be a legend though. At least the Leicester City Guide disputes it, saying that he's still buried at the old chapel of Greyfriars (the building doesn't exist anymore, the cemetery area now seems to be under a car park).

http://www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/leicester...23496.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III...f_Bosworth

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.
Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
(Dumbledore in 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire')


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08-26-2012 09:20 PM
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Serpentine Offline
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
*is thrilled* This is amazing, really amazing... looks like it could actually be him!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lei...e-19561018

Richard III dig: 'Strong evidence' bones are lost king Wrote:Richard III dig: 'Strong evidence' bones are lost king

Archaeologists searching for the grave of Richard III have said "strong circumstantial evidence" points to a skeleton being the lost king.


The English king died at the battle of Bosworth in 1485.

A dig under a council car park in Leicester has found remains with spinal abnormalities and a "cleaved-in skull" that suggest it could be Richard III.

The University of Leicester will now test the bones for DNA against descendants of Richard's family.

Professor Lin Foxhall, head of the university's School of Archaeology, said: "Archaeology almost never finds named individuals - this is absolutely extraordinary.

"Although we are far from certain yet, it is already astonishing."


A university spokesperson said the evidence included signs of a peri-mortem (near-death) trauma to the skull and a barbed iron arrow head in the area of the spine.

Richard is recorded by some sources as having been pulled from his horse and killed with a blow to the head.

The skeleton also showed severe scoliosis - a curvature of the spine.

Although not as pronounced as Shakespeare's portrayal of the king as a hunchback, the condition would have given the adult male the appearance of having one shoulder higher than the other.

Philippe Langley, from the Richard III Society, said: "It is such a tumult of emotions, I am shell-shocked.

"I just feel happy and sad and excited all at the same time. It is very odd."

As the defeated foe, Richard was given a low-key burial in the Franciscan friary of Greyfriars. (...)

Work focused on the choir area, in the centre of the church, where it was indicated Richard was interred.

The bones were lifted by archaeologists wearing forensic body suits in an effort to limit contamination by modern materials.

DNA will be extracted from the bones and tested against descendants of Richard's family.

Dr Turi King, who is leading the DNA analysis, said: "It is extremely exciting and slightly nerve-wracking.

"We have extracted teeth from the skull, so we have that and a femur, and we are optimistic we will get a good sample from those."

The tests are expected to take about 12 weeks to complete.

If their identity is confirmed, Leicester Cathedral said it would work with the Royal Household, and with the Richard III Society, to ensure the remains were treated with dignity and respect and reburied with the appropriate rites and ceremonies of the church. (...)

Analysis
Dr Steven Gunn, University of Oxford

After the battle of Bosworth Henry VII didn't want anyone claiming that they were Richard III and had survived the battle.

Richard's body was taken to Leicester, slung naked over the back of a horse, and publicly displayed so people could see he was dead.

But there was the problem of how and where to bury him - what seems likely is that they wanted to avoid anything that would generate a posthumous cult.

There was a tradition in medieval England that people who were political victims then became popular saints. They wouldn't have wanted to bury him in York, where he was very popular.

Greyfriars was convenient and safe. Henry VII put steps in action for a tomb to be built, and the inscription was to be ambivalent, and in some ways rude about Richard III, talking about his nephews and indicating that he wasn't a very good king. There is evidence that people talked about him being buried there.

Listen: What really happened at the battle of Bosworth?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19567378#

Richard III archaeological dig bones 'like king Wrote:Richard III archaeological dig bones 'like king'
12 September 2012 Last updated at 13:13 GMT

Archaeologists searching for the grave of Richard III have said human remains found in Leicester show similarities to the king's portrayal in records.

The English king died at the battle of Bosworth in 1485. Archaeologists began a dig searching for his last resting place on 25 August under a car park in Leicester.

The remains found show signs of spinal abnormalities and a "cleaved-in skull" that suggest it could be Richard III, the University of Leicester team has said.

Anthony Bartram reports. (video)

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.
Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
(Dumbledore in 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire')


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I trust Severus Snape
(This post was last modified: 09-12-2012 05:17 PM by Serpentine.)
09-12-2012 04:48 PM
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
Wow! This would be an amazing find if it turns out to be him. It is almost unbelievable that a 'lost' grave can be found.
09-13-2012 01:05 AM
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
I love history detectives! I've been following this developing story--hoping, first, that the church site would be uncovered....and hoping for the apparently impossible: that Richard really would be there.

I'm so excited by this news!

And then I pointed to myself and said, "You are such a total nerd--it matters to you that a man dead for 500 years may have been found!" Because....Yes. I truly, actually, really care about what happened to Richard. Oh, my. Wink

What we call the beginning is often the end
And to make an end is to make a beginning.
The end is where we start from.
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Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (King James Version, Matthew 25: 37-40)
09-13-2012 01:24 AM
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
I've been following the story all day. This is exciting news indeed! If the skeleton is Richard III's, it would be a find against all odds, something to liven up the history books for decades to come.

*Keeping my fingers crossed*

"I'll be a story in your head. But that's ok. We're all stories in the end. Just make it a good one, eh? Because it was, you know, it was the best: a daft old man, who stole a magic box and ran away." -The Eleventh Doctor
09-13-2012 01:57 AM
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
What an amazing discovery! They seem to have lots of good clues for this one. Smile The DNA will probably be the key.

(This post was last modified: 09-13-2012 09:29 AM by Silver Ink Pot.)
09-13-2012 09:27 AM
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
What amazes me is that genealogists have been able to track down descendants of his sister, Mary of York, for DNA comparison. Imagine waking to a call that you were the living descendant of a house of Britain?

"I'll be a story in your head. But that's ok. We're all stories in the end. Just make it a good one, eh? Because it was, you know, it was the best: a daft old man, who stole a magic box and ran away." -The Eleventh Doctor
09-13-2012 11:40 AM
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
Yes, that too is incredible - after 500 years! Titania (are you here to comment?) told me about the BBC documentary in which they showed how the historians tracked these descendants down. I haven't seen it myself (unfortunately!), but would dearly love to. Smile

According to Channel 4 which has accompanied the preparations for this dig for the past two years, the story of this find is supposed to become a documentary as well:

channel4.com: "Channel 4 to broadcast hunt for Richard III"
http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/...ichard-iii

And discussion about where to re-bury his remains (if they ARE his, but it does look likely... even if we'll know only in 12 weeks) also has already begun:

spectator.co.uk: "Richard III should be buried in the north"
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse...the-north/

Backstory of the Leicester digs and the DNA search:

bbc.co.uk: "Richard III dig: How search reached Leicester car park"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lei...e-19474848

One niggling detail I keep thinking of in regards to a possible state re-burial: the current British Royal Family is Church of England, i.e. Anglican... but Richard III lived before the Reformation - i.e., he was Catholic. How would they then do the rites for this English king?

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.
Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
(Dumbledore in 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire')


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I trust Severus Snape
(This post was last modified: 09-13-2012 07:32 PM by Serpentine.)
09-13-2012 07:31 PM
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
Thanks, Serpentine, I am glad you could use the BBC link I sent to you. As soon as i read it I knew who would desparately want it.
09-14-2012 09:34 AM
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
Thanks to you for letting me know at once, Titania! Smile You don't happen to know if that documentary is available online anywhere, do you? I haven't found it so far.


On the scientifical sides of the issue...

newscientist.com: "Is this Richard III, England's last Plantagenet king?"

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22...-king.html


... and the debate (yes, it has already started!) about where he is to be reinterred - Winchester Abbey in London, York Minster or Leicester Cathedral:

thisisleicestershire.co.uk: "Richard III dig: King's remains 'will stay in Leicester'"

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Ri...story.html

----------------
Oh, and on a totally separate side issue: I've just been told that Shakespeare's depiction of Macbeth of Scotland seems to be similarly off base as that of Richard III. Possibly for similar reasons too - pleasing a Tudor queen... after all Mary Queen of Scots was one of her enemies.

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.
Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
(Dumbledore in 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire')


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I trust Severus Snape
(This post was last modified: 09-14-2012 04:31 PM by Serpentine.)
09-14-2012 04:24 PM
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19623174

And here is the most recent video.
09-17-2012 04:50 PM
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
Thanks a bunch, Titania! Smile

For anyone interested, here are the pictures of our trip to Middleham and its castle (reputedly Richard III's favourite), as well as Middleham's St Mary and St Alkelda church (with banner and stained glass window dedicated to him), nearby Jervaulx Abbey and Richmond Castle. Including copies of the "Middleham Jewel" as well - which was found near Middleham Castle and according to scientists actually seems to be from around his time.

http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c314/S...%203-2012/
(password protected; as I was not allowed to use his motto "Loyaulté me lie" - no spaces nor funny accents! -, I chose the nickname by which friends called him: Dickon)

[Image: r3-sig_threesigs.jpg]

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.
Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
(Dumbledore in 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire')


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I trust Severus Snape
(This post was last modified: 09-17-2012 05:20 PM by Serpentine.)
09-17-2012 05:18 PM
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
blogs.spectator.co.uk: "Richard III: a ceremony fit for a king?"

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse...or-a-king/

Quote:Chris Skidmore, Conservative MP and historian, explains the plans already in place for the burial of Richard III. (...)

(...) So read the inscription on Richard III’s tomb, constructed ten years after the king’s death, when in September 1495, Henry VII eventually decided to give some thought the dead king’s grave, ordering that James Keyley be paid £10 1s for making ‘King Richard’s tomb’. Even in the grave, it seems, Richard would continue to cause controversy, with the payment for the alabaster monument becoming the subject of a lawsuit between two stonemasons. With the possible rediscovery of the king’s body beneath a car park at Leicester, subject to DNA testing that will take up to twelve weeks, it seems that controversy has once more been reignited. (...)

(...) When Richard’s body was cut down, Henry chose to have the Yorkist king ‘irreverently buried’ without any funeral ceremony in the choir of the Franciscan Friars Minor in Leicester.

Richard’s tomb did not survive the Dissolution of the Monasteries, which brought an end to his final resting place at Grey Friars. John Speed, in his History of Great Britian, published in 1611, stated that at the suppression of Grey Friars’ monastery, Richard’s tomb was ‘pulled down and utterly defaced, since when he grave overgrown with nettles and weeds is very obscure and not to be found.’ The father of Sir Christopher Wren wrote how after the dissolution ‘the place of his burial happened to fall into the bounds of a citizen’s garden, (...)'

This is the last mention of Richard’s grave, until last week’s discovery of a skeleton, supposedly with a curvature of the spine, with an arrowhead lodged in its back and wounds to the skull consistent with the king’s brutal end. The issue now remains, if the bones are those of the Yorkist king, what should be done with them, and how should ‘Richard’ be re-buried? As an anointed king, should he therefore be granted a state funeral, and if so, where might his remains be interred? (Already the debate has begun to rage between Leicester, York or Westminster Abbey, where Richard’s wife Anne Neville is buried). There are noteworthy precedents abroad, most recently the reburial of Tsar Nicholas II in 1998, yet in Britain there are thorny issues that need to be addressed. Since the Act of Settlement in 1701, should a Catholic monarch be granted such an honour, and if so, what form would the funeral rites take? In a parliamentary motion, I have suggested that Richard be buried ‘appropriately’, yet evidently there is room for discussion.

It seems that this discussion may already be academic: apparently a ‘Reburial Document’ has been prepared by the organisers of the excavation in case Richard was found, outlining a quiet and strictly private reburial using a requiem mass, followed by a later ‘Service of Celebration’ which would be open to the public. Nevertheless, it throws up the question of how a joint funeral ceremony should be conducted, something which I intend to pursue with the Church Commissioner, Sir Tony Baldry MP.

Richard, who took his book of Hours to the battlefield with him and whose chantry foundations demonstrate his commitment to the cult of sainthood, was clearly a devout Catholic; what licence then, should be made for the king’s own beliefs, without compromising the Anglican settlement? Perhaps the closest example available is the case of St Edward the Martyr, whose remains were unearthed in 1931, yet took until 1984, when after lengthy negotiations, his bones, having been stored in a cutlery box in a bank vault in Woking, were finally buried by the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile at a site owned by the St Edward Brotherhood, on the agreement that the saint’s feast days were observed— itself testament to the problems that reburials can cause.

As for a state funeral, an honour bestowed upon anointed kings and queens, four Prime Ministers, Nelson and Darwin, the option remains an interesting one to debate; what is certain, that if the bones turn out to be Richard, we should mark a remarkable, often bloody and controversial chapter in our nation’s history, with a ceremony fit for a king.


blogs.telegraph.co.uk: "Damn it, let's give Richard III one last, glorious summer" (LOL! Big Grin )

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhod...us-summer/

Quote:I’ve got to be honest. With all that’s been happening in the news over the last couple of days, I hadn’t really allowed the full significance to properly sink in. But blimey – it really does look like they’ve found Richard III.

They haven’t found a living, breathing, clubbed-foot dragging Richard, obviously. That would be headline news, not least because of the implications for Royal succession; “Er, Prince Charles, I have a bit of bad news for you sir…”. No, they have found his body.

According to the University of Leicester’s Richard Taylor, who is leading the search: “We are not saying today that we have found King Richard III. What we are saying the search for Richard III it has entered a new phase. The skeleton certainly has characteristics that warrant extensive, further and detailed examination”.

Fine Mr Taylor, but lets cut to the chase; precisely how many battle scarred skeletons with an individual form of spinal curvature, which makes the right shoulder visibly higher than the left shoulder, laid to rest in an unusually formal setting a mere spitting distance from Bosworth field are there littering the car parks of Leicestershire? Stop being modest. You’ve got your man.

It’s unbelievable. Either the guy who faked the Hitler Diaries has really surpassed himself, or surely this is one of the most amazing discoveries in British archaeological history. When they found Piltdown Man every one went nuts, and his was just some jobbing half-ape, and an imposter at that. Hell, I get excited each time Tony Robinson and Mick Aston find some old Roman latrine. This is our Tutankhamun. (...)

Let’s give him a full, no-holds-barred state funeral. Everyone’s been banging on about preserving the Olympic spirit; well here – DNA tests permitting – is our chance. This is a once in a generation opportunity. In fact, it’s a once in about 20 generations opportunity. Let’s bring our history alive.

Just imagine the crowds that would gather for the chance of watching a 21st century ceremonial to a Plantagenet king. And not just an English king, but thanks to Shakespeare, a global monarch.

Picture the moment. A silent Mall. A slow drum beat. An honor guard, heads bowed in tribute to their leader who fell 500 years before. Richard, making his last journey, laid upon a ceremonial gun carriage, draped in the flag of the kingdom he died fighting for. And ahead of him walks a riderless horse. The horse that in his last moments, he would have swapped that kingdom for.

Bloody hell, I’d miss an episode of Strictly for that. And I bet a few million others would as well.

Okay, there’s the slightly unfortunate business of the Princes and the Tower. But we’ve all made the odd mistake. Plus, if you read Josephine Tay’s the Daughter of Time, it was a fit up anyway. (...)

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.
Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
(Dumbledore in 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire')


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09-19-2012 06:47 PM
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
bbc.co.uk: "Richard III dig: From cabinet-maker to kingmaker"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19731622

Quote:His genetic profile holds the key to what could be one of the most remarkable archaeological stories of recent times.

Experts have, against the odds, found bones beneath a Leicester car park which fit the known details of King Richard III's death at the Battle of Bosworth in 1485.

And Michael Ibsen, a Canadian-born cabinet-maker from Paddington in London who is a descendant of Richard III's sister Anne, admits the link makes "the hair go up on my neck".

If the DNA of the battle-scarred skeleton with a twisted back proves to be a close enough match to that of 55-year-old Mr Ibsen, a chapter in history will have a new ending. (...)

Mr Ibsen said: "It is a really quite extraordinary thing to think about, that all the way through these 17 generations, this little bit of DNA has continued and exists within myself, my sister and my brother and my mother before she died."

The fact that a DNA profile could be matched against any remains found helped to persuade the authorities to allow a dig beneath a council car park, beneath which documents had indicated Richard might be buried.

Mr Ibsen said: "I've gone through a range of emotions. Initially it was all rather surreal and detached in a way.

"Then when they announced the discovery of the remains I was really quite stunned because here was an actual real connection, they found someone who they think is Richard III and it comes alive and real in a way it was not before.

"It's a difficult feeling to express. It made me smile inside in a way, and there was a sense of amazement as well as shock.

"But I did have a quiet think last time I was up at the site and standing right in front of the actual place where they found the remains.

"It was one of those hair goes up on the back on your neck, tingle up your spine moments, you have this connection with history. Extraordinary." (...)

"I don't know details but I think they are hoping to inter him in Leicester Cathedral, but if they confirm it is indeed Richard III then there will be some sort of ceremony and it would be nice to be there.

"I find [the idea of being at the funeral] utterly bizarre.

"I almost hope somewhere along the line they dig up some more people so others can be ancestors and descendants in the same sort of way. It is going to be an extraordinary experience."


guardian.co.uk: "Notes & Queries: Could Richard III have joined ParalympicsGB?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/20...sfeed=true

Quote:Assuming the skeleton under the Leicester car park is Richard III, were he alive today would he qualify for the equestrian Paralympics team? How difficult would his condition have made riding into battle? (...)

Richard III is thought to have had scoliosis, a sideways curvature of the spine that can involve twisting, and the shoulders and hips being out of alignment. It is surprisingly common, with around four in every 1,000 having it, and the impact varies widely. For more information about scoliosis, visit the Scoliosis Association.

The classification rules for the Paralympics state that athletes with a physical or visual impairment are eligible; I think Richard would have qualified.

If the Leicester corpse is Richard, he might well, reflecting historic responses to disability, have described himself, as Shakespeare does, as: "Deformed, unfinish'd, sent before my time/ Into this breathing world, scarce half made up/ And that so lamely and unfashionable/ That dogs bark at me as I halt by them." However, perhaps after this glorious British summer, Richard might regard himself more positively if he had scoliosis today, as I do. Almost certainly, given what we know of his drive and his exploits on the battlefield, he could have royally topped up the London 2012 medal hoard.

Agnes Fletcher, Great Missenden, Bucks

There is no reason to assume scoliosis would have impaired Richard's abilities. Both Michael Phelps and Usain Bolt have scoliosis, as do many other athletes and dancers. All reports of Richard's battle prowess, not least his final charge at Bosworth, indicate his condition in no way affected his abilities as a soldier.

Kim Harding, Barnard Castle, Co Durham


nytimes.com: "Discovery of Skeleton Puts Richard III in Battle Once Again"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/24/world/...emityn.www

Quote:LEICESTER, England — For more than 500 years, King Richard III has been the most widely reviled of English monarchs. But a stunning archaeological find this month here in the English Midlands — a skeleton that medieval scholars believe is very likely to be Richard’s — could lead to a reassessment of his brief but violent reign.

If 12 weeks of DNA and isotope testing confirm that the remains found amid the ruins of an ancient priory are the 15th century king’s, those who believe that Richard has been the victim of a campaign of denigration — begun by the Tudor monarchs who succeeded him and deeply entrenched over the centuries in British popular consciousness — hope the renewed attention will spur scholarship that will correct the injustice they say has been done to his reputation.

It is a debate that has raged with varying intensity since at least the late 18th century. And at its heart is this: Was Richard the villain his detractors expediently made him out to be, or was he, as supporters contend, a goodly king, harsh in ways that were a function of an unforgiving time, but the author of groundbreaking measures to help the poor, extend protections to suspected felons and ease bans on the printing and selling of books? (...)

But that pointer proved moot when Henry VIII seized and ransacked the monasteries in 1538, leaving priories like Greyfriars to crumble into rubble, to the point where centuries later, nobody had any precise fix as to where they once stood.

That left the archaeologists to determine, using ground-penetrating radar, where the priory had been. Their big break came when it proved to be not under a 19th-century bank building where local legend and scholarship had placed it, but under the more accessible parking lot across the street.

Within days of starting the dig they had located the remains, which Dr. Appleby and her colleagues later painstakingly transferred to a laboratory in Leicester that the partners in the dig — the university, city authorities, and the Richard III Society, dedicated to revising history’s verdict on the king — have declined to name.

Much now depends on the laboratory investigation, especially the DNA tests on genetic material from the remains that will be compared with swab tests from Michael Ibsen, a cabinet maker living in London, whose mother was a 16th-generation niece of King Richard’s. Other tests will involve carbon dating to fix the age of the bones and the arrowhead, and isotope analysis, which can determine where an individual lived in his early years. In Richard’s case, that would be Fotheringhay Castle in Northamptonshire, not far from Leicester.

Those involved in the Leicester dig say that the scientific tests, like much about the venture, are a “long shot.” DNA testing, they say, can be voided by genetic mutations that have occurred over generations. For that and other reasons, they say, a negative DNA finding will not prove, definitively, that the bones are not Richard’s.

Mathew Morris, an archaeologist who was working with Dr. Appleby when the skeleton was found, was cautious about the discovery: “All the archaeology and the lab testing can tell us is, if it is Richard, is that he had a spinal deformity, the nature of the injuries from which he died in battle and the respect shown to him in the place and manner in which he was buried. It can’t tell us anything about Richard the man. But what it may do is to reignite the debate about whether he was a villain or not.”

“It doesn’t fit with Tudor sources which portray Richard as a wicked hunchback,” Dr. Foxhall said at a news conference to announce the find. “There was a long history from Greco-Roman times onward of associating physical disability like spinal deformations with negative character traits, a belief that we explicitly do not share today.

“But it does partially explain the Tudor representation of Richard III. The individual we have discovered was obviously strong and active despite his disability. If this individual does indeed turn out to be Richard III, this has the potential for a new and different understanding of the last of the Plantagenet kings.” (...)

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.
Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
(Dumbledore in 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire')


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I trust Severus Snape
(This post was last modified: 09-27-2012 07:42 PM by Serpentine.)
09-27-2012 07:10 PM
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Serpentine Offline
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
The latest issue of “Current Archaeology” has extensive coverage of the Greyfriars dig:

http://www.archaeology.co.uk/richard-iii


... and a French take on the story, for those who can read French:

http://www.legorafi.fr/2012/09/13/richar...une-piste/

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.
Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
(Dumbledore in 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire')


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I trust Severus Snape
10-04-2012 05:19 PM
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PotionStudent Offline
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RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
Just in case this was not clear, this is a mock-news site, a bit like the US 'onion" Wink The name is a twist on a very serious French journal, Le Figaro.
10-04-2012 06:52 PM
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Serpentine Offline
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Wink RE: Snape Castle, Richard III and Severus Snape - by Serpentine
Yeah, I noticed when I read the article. Smile Doesn't change that I like it though... I'm that odd. Tongue

"We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.
Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open."
(Dumbledore in 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire')


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I trust Severus Snape
10-05-2012 03:41 PM
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